Letter responding to an Evangelical's questions about "Mormon" beliefs
Letter responding to an Evangelical's questions about "Mormon" beliefs
by Robert Starling
by Robert Starling
I have received from a man named "Ronny" a list of questions about my
beliefs. Since these "questions" seem to be repeating criticisms that
I've found to be common themes in much of the anti-Mormon literature
that I've studied over the years, I thought it might be useful to
provide Ronny (and now you) with some of my own answers and also some
links to research done by others on the topics in question.
beliefs. Since these "questions" seem to be repeating criticisms that
I've found to be common themes in much of the anti-Mormon literature
that I've studied over the years, I thought it might be useful to
provide Ronny (and now you) with some of my own answers and also some
links to research done by others on the topics in question.
For those of you who share my faith, you or someone you know may have
already been challenged by critics of our church and perhaps have been
presented with some of the issues I've addressed herein but did not
know how to respond. As the public attention grows in what the media
has called the "Mormon Moment", those critical (or fearful) of our
faith will continue to attempt to exploit those misunderstandings to
suit their own agenda.
already been challenged by critics of our church and perhaps have been
presented with some of the issues I've addressed herein but did not
know how to respond. As the public attention grows in what the media
has called the "Mormon Moment", those critical (or fearful) of our
faith will continue to attempt to exploit those misunderstandings to
suit their own agenda.
A verse in the Doctrine and Covenants says "if ye are prepared ye
shall not fear". But many (most?) LDS members have not taken the time
(nor known the resources) to become prepared to answer these kinds of
questions, which as I've said deal mostly with the "appendages" to our
faith. Most of us spend the bulk of our gospel study time with the
"fundamental principles", learning of Jesus Christ and trying to
follow Him. Hopefully this document will provide some of the
resources you will need to "be prepared", as my Scoutmaster used to
say. None of the material here officially represents the LDS church.
The responsibility is mine or that of the the internet links I've
provided.
shall not fear". But many (most?) LDS members have not taken the time
(nor known the resources) to become prepared to answer these kinds of
questions, which as I've said deal mostly with the "appendages" to our
faith. Most of us spend the bulk of our gospel study time with the
"fundamental principles", learning of Jesus Christ and trying to
follow Him. Hopefully this document will provide some of the
resources you will need to "be prepared", as my Scoutmaster used to
say. None of the material here officially represents the LDS church.
The responsibility is mine or that of the the internet links I've
provided.
Hi Ronny,
You’ve obviously done some reading of typical anti-Mormon literature.
In answer to your “Did You Know’ questions below, for the most part
the answer is YES, I’ve known these things for over twenty years. Are
you just now learning them? You’re coming late to the game. These
topics have been addressed many years ago by competent LDS scholars,
as admitted by Evangelical scholars Carl Mosser and Paul Owen in a
paper given at the 1997 Evangelical Theological Society Far West
Annual Meeting on April 25, 1997. They urged Evangelical scholars to
catch up. Read it for yourself here: http://www.cometozarahemla.org/others/mosser-owen.html (excellent article)
In answer to your “Did You Know’ questions below, for the most part
the answer is YES, I’ve known these things for over twenty years. Are
you just now learning them? You’re coming late to the game. These
topics have been addressed many years ago by competent LDS scholars,
as admitted by Evangelical scholars Carl Mosser and Paul Owen in a
paper given at the 1997 Evangelical Theological Society Far West
Annual Meeting on April 25, 1997. They urged Evangelical scholars to
catch up. Read it for yourself here: http://www.cometozarahemla.org/others/mosser-owen.html (excellent article)
I’ll try to provide you with links to some of the pertinent research.
After you’ve studied these LDS responses, I’ll be happy to try and
answer any remaining questions you may have. You asked for a drink of
water, but here’s the fire hose:
After you’ve studied these LDS responses, I’ll be happy to try and
answer any remaining questions you may have. You asked for a drink of
water, but here’s the fire hose:
Ronny: Did you know that following the translation of the Book of
Mormon, Joseph Smith said: “We heard a voice from out of the bright
light above us, saying, ‘These plates have been revealed by the power
of God, and they have been translated by the power of God. The
translations of them which you have seen is correct’”?
Mormon, Joseph Smith said: “We heard a voice from out of the bright
light above us, saying, ‘These plates have been revealed by the power
of God, and they have been translated by the power of God. The
translations of them which you have seen is correct’”?
Me: Actually Ronny you’ve already started out with a misquote. This
is not a good sign. It was not something Joseph Smith said. That
statement comes from the testimony of three witnesses to whom Joseph
Smith showed the golden plates from which the Book of Mormon was
translated, and to whom the Angel Moroni appeared. There were another
eight witnesses who saw the plates but not the angel on a separate
occasion.
is not a good sign. It was not something Joseph Smith said. That
statement comes from the testimony of three witnesses to whom Joseph
Smith showed the golden plates from which the Book of Mormon was
translated, and to whom the Angel Moroni appeared. There were another
eight witnesses who saw the plates but not the angel on a separate
occasion.
Ronny: Did you know that over 4,000 changes have been made in the
Book of Mormon since its original publication in 1830? Even articles
in your own Ensign magazine concede that changes have been made.
Book of Mormon since its original publication in 1830? Even articles
in your own Ensign magazine concede that changes have been made.
Me: Jeff Lindsay has an excellent paper on this that you can find
here: (I’ll be using Jeff’s website a lot, because he has also
assembled there the work of many other LDS scholars as well as his own
research.) http://www.jefflindsay.com/LDSFAQ/FQ_changes.shtml
Here’s a brief excerpt of his overview:
Critics of the Church have charged that the Book of Mormon is a fraud
because thousands of changes have been made in it over the years, as
if the Church were trying to cover up blunders in Joseph Smith's work.
Certainly there have been many minor changes in the text of the Book
of Mormon, as there have been in the text of the King James Version of
the Bible (and other translations as well) over the years. These
changes have been minor, usually trivial, primarily dealing with
punctuation, correction of typographical errors, and modification of
awkward grammar for clarity. I have examined the allegedly most
"serious" changes pointed to by critics and have not seen anything
representing a real change in doctrine or anything that would cast
doubt on the origins of the Book of Mormon. I'll discuss major
examples below.
In the early 1800s, spelling and grammar were not yet standardized.
Joseph dictated the translation to scribes who spelled many words in
ways that are nonstandard today. Hundreds of spelling variants had to
be corrected in the first edition and in subsequent editions of the
printed text. For example, "ware sorraful" in 1 Nephi 7:20 was changed
to "were sorrowful." Likewise, we should not be outraged to find Nephi
writing on "plates" today when Joseph's scribes had him writing on
"plaits" in 1 Nephi 13:23. Hundreds of such changes have been
necessary.
Years ago, Jerald and Sandra Tanner published a book claiming to
identify 3,000 changes between the original 1830 edition and the then
present version. Now I've heard the number of 4,000 mentioned in e-
mail. Whatever the number, critics are trying to create the impression
that the Church has something to hide about the Book of Mormon. The
critics often charge that there is a great cover-up about the changes
in the text compared to the original Book of Mormon, completely
ignoring the fact that anybody can buy reprints of the 1830 edition
from LDS bookstores and that LDS scholars freely and openly discuss
and write about the nature of these changes. Changes in the text have
been discussed in official Church publications like the Ensign
magazine and by widely respected, private LDS groups like the
Foundation for Ancient Research and Mormon Studies. The critics infer
that the Church is embarrassed about the original Book of Mormon and
has had to make changes in it to "improve" the doctrine or resolve
blunders. Such arguments are truly dishonest. The driving force for
virtually all changes has been to (1) ensure that the printed text is
faithful to the original manuscript and (2) to ensure that the text is
accessible and readable. Alleged departures from the original text
generally turn out to be simple clarifications or reworkings of
awkward grammar rather than doctrinal changes.
here: (I’ll be using Jeff’s website a lot, because he has also
assembled there the work of many other LDS scholars as well as his own
research.) http://www.jefflindsay.com/LDSFAQ/FQ_changes.shtml
Here’s a brief excerpt of his overview:
Critics of the Church have charged that the Book of Mormon is a fraud
because thousands of changes have been made in it over the years, as
if the Church were trying to cover up blunders in Joseph Smith's work.
Certainly there have been many minor changes in the text of the Book
of Mormon, as there have been in the text of the King James Version of
the Bible (and other translations as well) over the years. These
changes have been minor, usually trivial, primarily dealing with
punctuation, correction of typographical errors, and modification of
awkward grammar for clarity. I have examined the allegedly most
"serious" changes pointed to by critics and have not seen anything
representing a real change in doctrine or anything that would cast
doubt on the origins of the Book of Mormon. I'll discuss major
examples below.
In the early 1800s, spelling and grammar were not yet standardized.
Joseph dictated the translation to scribes who spelled many words in
ways that are nonstandard today. Hundreds of spelling variants had to
be corrected in the first edition and in subsequent editions of the
printed text. For example, "ware sorraful" in 1 Nephi 7:20 was changed
to "were sorrowful." Likewise, we should not be outraged to find Nephi
writing on "plates" today when Joseph's scribes had him writing on
"plaits" in 1 Nephi 13:23. Hundreds of such changes have been
necessary.
Years ago, Jerald and Sandra Tanner published a book claiming to
identify 3,000 changes between the original 1830 edition and the then
present version. Now I've heard the number of 4,000 mentioned in e-
mail. Whatever the number, critics are trying to create the impression
that the Church has something to hide about the Book of Mormon. The
critics often charge that there is a great cover-up about the changes
in the text compared to the original Book of Mormon, completely
ignoring the fact that anybody can buy reprints of the 1830 edition
from LDS bookstores and that LDS scholars freely and openly discuss
and write about the nature of these changes. Changes in the text have
been discussed in official Church publications like the Ensign
magazine and by widely respected, private LDS groups like the
Foundation for Ancient Research and Mormon Studies. The critics infer
that the Church is embarrassed about the original Book of Mormon and
has had to make changes in it to "improve" the doctrine or resolve
blunders. Such arguments are truly dishonest. The driving force for
virtually all changes has been to (1) ensure that the printed text is
faithful to the original manuscript and (2) to ensure that the text is
accessible and readable. Alleged departures from the original text
generally turn out to be simple clarifications or reworkings of
awkward grammar rather than doctrinal changes.
Ronny: The Book of Mormon has some 27,000 words that were taken
directly from the King James Version of the Bible. There are whole
verses lifted right out of the King James Version. The problem, then,
is this: If the Book of Mormon was first penned between 600 B.C. and
A.D. 421, as claimed, how could it contain such extensive quotations
from A.D. 1611 King James Version, which was not written for another
1200 to 2000 years?
directly from the King James Version of the Bible. There are whole
verses lifted right out of the King James Version. The problem, then,
is this: If the Book of Mormon was first penned between 600 B.C. and
A.D. 421, as claimed, how could it contain such extensive quotations
from A.D. 1611 King James Version, which was not written for another
1200 to 2000 years?
Me: For answers to this, go to these pages and click on the links
that ask:
Did Joseph Smith plagiarize from the King James Bible?
http://www.jefflindsay.com/LDSFAQ/FQ_BMProb3.shtml#kjv
Why does the Book of Mormon repeat so much text from the Bible?
http://www.jefflindsay.com/LDSFAQ/FQ_BMProb3.shtml#rework
that ask:
Did Joseph Smith plagiarize from the King James Bible?
http://www.jefflindsay.com/LDSFAQ/FQ_BMProb3.shtml#kjv
Why does the Book of Mormon repeat so much text from the Bible?
http://www.jefflindsay.com/LDSFAQ/FQ_BMProb3.shtml#rework
respected institutions in the world---the Smithsonian Institution---
see no archeological support for the Book of Mormon or for a migration
from Israel to America?
see no archeological support for the Book of Mormon or for a migration
from Israel to America?
Me: The Smithsonian has backed off their statements from1996 and
earlier to a more prudent current statement that admits what they just
don’t know, but since so many anti-Mormon writes have not gotten the
news, some of their earlier positions are dealt with here:
http://www.jefflindsay.com/LDSFAQ/smithsonian.shtml
earlier to a more prudent current statement that admits what they just
don’t know, but since so many anti-Mormon writes have not gotten the
news, some of their earlier positions are dealt with here:
http://www.jefflindsay.com/LDSFAQ/smithsonian.shtml
Ronny: Inspirations means: that the Holy Spirit of God superintended
the human writers in the production of Scripture so that what they
wrote was precisely what God wanted written.
the human writers in the production of Scripture so that what they
wrote was precisely what God wanted written.
Me: Latter-day Saints agree with the “verbal inspiration” of the
original writers of Scripture, but for almost 2,000 years the Bible
has been translated and re-translated and paraphrased and passed
through the hands of many un-inspired scribes, many with their own
agendas. This has been acknowledged by all serious Bible scholars,
not just LDS. The real miracle is that so much of the original text
has remained intact. This is why our Article of Faith says, “We
believe the Bible to be the word of God, as far as it is translated
correctly. We also believe the Book of Mormon to be the word of God”.
(Note: the same disclaimer regarding “translated correctly” applies to
non-English versions of the Book of Mormon.)
original writers of Scripture, but for almost 2,000 years the Bible
has been translated and re-translated and paraphrased and passed
through the hands of many un-inspired scribes, many with their own
agendas. This has been acknowledged by all serious Bible scholars,
not just LDS. The real miracle is that so much of the original text
has remained intact. This is why our Article of Faith says, “We
believe the Bible to be the word of God, as far as it is translated
correctly. We also believe the Book of Mormon to be the word of God”.
(Note: the same disclaimer regarding “translated correctly” applies to
non-English versions of the Book of Mormon.)
Ronny: There are 24,000 partial and complete manuscript copies of the
New Testament. Is there even a single plate supporting the Book of
Mormon?
New Testament. Is there even a single plate supporting the Book of
Mormon?
Me: Actually most of those thousands of fragments are pretty tiny.
Sometimes only part of one verse. There are only three major
manuscripts used by most modern translations: The Codex Vaticanus, the
Codex Alexandrius, and the Codex Sinaiticus. (and note that two of
these three contain several books that are not in the current 66 books
of the Protestant Bible.)
Here is the complete text of the earliest codex: http://www.sinaiticus.com/
As you well know, the plates were returned to the angel Moroni.
However we have the signed testimonies of the Three Witnesses and
another Eight Witnesses, all upstanding citizens, as to their
existence and their appearance. These testimonies are printed in the
front of every copy of the Book of Mormon. Some of these witnesses
later became disenchanted with Joseph Smith and left the Church. They
would have had motive to recant their written testimonies but none of
them ever did.
Sometimes only part of one verse. There are only three major
manuscripts used by most modern translations: The Codex Vaticanus, the
Codex Alexandrius, and the Codex Sinaiticus. (and note that two of
these three contain several books that are not in the current 66 books
of the Protestant Bible.)
Here is the complete text of the earliest codex: http://www.sinaiticus.com/
As you well know, the plates were returned to the angel Moroni.
However we have the signed testimonies of the Three Witnesses and
another Eight Witnesses, all upstanding citizens, as to their
existence and their appearance. These testimonies are printed in the
front of every copy of the Book of Mormon. Some of these witnesses
later became disenchanted with Joseph Smith and left the Church. They
would have had motive to recant their written testimonies but none of
them ever did.
It’s interesting to note however that since the publication of the
Book of Mormon in 1830 there have been several examples of ancient
writing on metal plates that have been discovered in various parts of
the world. Here are a couple of articles:
http://maxwellinstitute.byu.edu/publications/insights/?vol=23&num=5&i...
http://www.lds.org/ensign/1979/10/ancient-writing-on-metal-plates?lan...
Book of Mormon in 1830 there have been several examples of ancient
writing on metal plates that have been discovered in various parts of
the world. Here are a couple of articles:
http://maxwellinstitute.byu.edu/publications/insights/?vol=23&num=5&i...
http://www.lds.org/ensign/1979/10/ancient-writing-on-metal-plates?lan...
Ronny: Did you know that there are enough quotations from the early
church fathers that even if we did not have a single manuscript copy
of the Bible, scholars could reconstruct all but 11 verses of the
entire New Testament?
church fathers that even if we did not have a single manuscript copy
of the Bible, scholars could reconstruct all but 11 verses of the
entire New Testament?
Me: In 1979 I went to England and personally interviewed Dr. John
A.T. Robinson at Cambridge University, the author of Can We Trust the
New Testament? I’m pretty familiar with the extent of Bible
scholarship. In fact we do NOT have a single “autograph” copy. The
earliest copy we have is from the 4th century, and it includes books
not in the current canon. There is no existing copy of an “inerrant”
version, that is, as it came from the pens of the original writers.
A.T. Robinson at Cambridge University, the author of Can We Trust the
New Testament? I’m pretty familiar with the extent of Bible
scholarship. In fact we do NOT have a single “autograph” copy. The
earliest copy we have is from the 4th century, and it includes books
not in the current canon. There is no existing copy of an “inerrant”
version, that is, as it came from the pens of the original writers.
Ronny: Did you know that the Dead Sea Scrolls, discovered in 1947 at
Qumran, contained a copy of almost every Old Testament book?
Qumran, contained a copy of almost every Old Testament book?
Me: Yes, and did you know that the Nag Hammadi Scrolls discovered in
Egypt in 1945 contained ancient Christian texts from the New Testament
era, with vivid descriptions of early Christian temple ceremonies
that are virtually identical to LDS temple rites revealed to Joseph
Smith?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nag_Hammadi_library
and
http://rsc.byu.edu/archived/apocryphal-writings-and-latter-day-saints...
Egypt in 1945 contained ancient Christian texts from the New Testament
era, with vivid descriptions of early Christian temple ceremonies
that are virtually identical to LDS temple rites revealed to Joseph
Smith?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nag_Hammadi_library
and
http://rsc.byu.edu/archived/apocryphal-writings-and-latter-day-saints...
Ronny: Did you know that the Old Testament manuscripts discovered at
Qumran date 1,000 years earlier than the previous manuscripts we
possessed? Did you know that when scholars compared the two sets of
manuscripts—one set dating around A.D. 900, the other around 150 B.C.—
they found almost no differences?
Qumran date 1,000 years earlier than the previous manuscripts we
possessed? Did you know that when scholars compared the two sets of
manuscripts—one set dating around A.D. 900, the other around 150 B.C.—
they found almost no differences?
Me: Even with the Dead Sea Scrolls, the oldest existing manuscripts
of the Old Testament were copied about 400 years after the original
writers were gone. And the earliest New Testament manuscripts we have
were written over 300 years after the Apostles (the writers) died. A
lot can (and did) happen to handwritten manuscripts in 300-400
years.
Now let me ask you a few questions:
Did you know that there are many examples in the BofM of complex
ancient Hebrew literary forms like “chiasmus” that neither Joseph
Smith nor almost anyone on earth was aware of when the BofM was
published in 1830? (not bad for an ignorant plowboy whom you call a
fraud, huh?) Check this out: http://www.jefflindsay.com/chiasmus.shtml
of the Old Testament were copied about 400 years after the original
writers were gone. And the earliest New Testament manuscripts we have
were written over 300 years after the Apostles (the writers) died. A
lot can (and did) happen to handwritten manuscripts in 300-400
years.
Now let me ask you a few questions:
Did you know that there are many examples in the BofM of complex
ancient Hebrew literary forms like “chiasmus” that neither Joseph
Smith nor almost anyone on earth was aware of when the BofM was
published in 1830? (not bad for an ignorant plowboy whom you call a
fraud, huh?) Check this out: http://www.jefflindsay.com/chiasmus.shtml
Did you know that Lehi’s trail from Jerusalem to the oasis of
Bountiful on the Arabian coast where Nephi build a boat to sail to the
Americas has been discovered and documented in the last 10-12 years?
Joseph Smith could not have known anything about the “empty quarter”
of Arabia in 1830 because it was unknown to the western world until
the 1930’s, yet the BofM describes the route in detail.
http://www.jefflindsay.com/bme21.shtml
Bountiful on the Arabian coast where Nephi build a boat to sail to the
Americas has been discovered and documented in the last 10-12 years?
Joseph Smith could not have known anything about the “empty quarter”
of Arabia in 1830 because it was unknown to the western world until
the 1930’s, yet the BofM describes the route in detail.
http://www.jefflindsay.com/bme21.shtml
Did you know that when modern scholars began to translate the Book of
Mormon back into Hebrew, many of its grammatical constructions that
were awkward in English came out as perfect Hebrew? (Joseph Smith did
not know Hebrew then.)
Mormon back into Hebrew, many of its grammatical constructions that
were awkward in English came out as perfect Hebrew? (Joseph Smith did
not know Hebrew then.)
Did you know that sophisticated computer wordprint analysis (sometimes
used by the FBI) reveals that the BofM was written by a number of
different authors (represented by the different writers named Nephi,
Alma, Mosiah, Mormon, etc.)?
It could NOT have been written by Joseph Smith or any 19th century
person.
http://en.fairmormon.org/Book_of_Mormon/Wordprint_studies
http://www.cometozarahemla.org/defense/reynoldssp97.html#_1_15
used by the FBI) reveals that the BofM was written by a number of
different authors (represented by the different writers named Nephi,
Alma, Mosiah, Mormon, etc.)?
It could NOT have been written by Joseph Smith or any 19th century
person.
http://en.fairmormon.org/Book_of_Mormon/Wordprint_studies
http://www.cometozarahemla.org/defense/reynoldssp97.html#_1_15
Did you know that a stone carved on Stela 5 in Izapa, Mexico has over
50 different correlations to Lehi’s dream of the Tree of Life in the
BofM? This stela was first documented and photographed by Matthew
Stirling of the Smithsonian in 1941.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Izapa_Stela_5
http://www.ancientamerica.org/library/media/HTML/jlc26beq/51.%20Tree%...
50 different correlations to Lehi’s dream of the Tree of Life in the
BofM? This stela was first documented and photographed by Matthew
Stirling of the Smithsonian in 1941.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Izapa_Stela_5
http://www.ancientamerica.org/library/media/HTML/jlc26beq/51.%20Tree%...
The central claim of the Book of Mormon is that Jesus Christ appeared
after his resurrection to his “other sheep” (John 10:16) living in the
Americas and taught them his gospel. This should be welcomed by other
Christians because it adds another “testament” to Christ’s divinity
that can’t be explained away by liberal “higher criticism” of the
Bible. There is ample evidence in the history and folklore of the
inhabitants of pre-Columbian America of a Christ-like person who
appeared about 34 AD and performed mighty miracles and taught a
religion of peace and love. What a coincidence?! How could Joseph
Smith have known about that? You can find more details here:
http://www.jefflindsay.com/bme9.shtml
I could give you a lot more, but Jeff has a summary page of BofM
evidences here:
http://www.jefflindsay.com/BMEvidences.shtml
after his resurrection to his “other sheep” (John 10:16) living in the
Americas and taught them his gospel. This should be welcomed by other
Christians because it adds another “testament” to Christ’s divinity
that can’t be explained away by liberal “higher criticism” of the
Bible. There is ample evidence in the history and folklore of the
inhabitants of pre-Columbian America of a Christ-like person who
appeared about 34 AD and performed mighty miracles and taught a
religion of peace and love. What a coincidence?! How could Joseph
Smith have known about that? You can find more details here:
http://www.jefflindsay.com/bme9.shtml
I could give you a lot more, but Jeff has a summary page of BofM
evidences here:
http://www.jefflindsay.com/BMEvidences.shtml
Ronny: The Mormon Church is a cult because of its strange practices.
What is a Cult? Defined: There are a number of doctrinal
characteristics of cults. One will typically find an emphasis on new
revelation from God, a denial of the sole authority of the Bible, a
denial of the Trinity, a distorted view of God and Jesus, or a denial
of salvation by grace.
What is a Cult? Defined: There are a number of doctrinal
characteristics of cults. One will typically find an emphasis on new
revelation from God, a denial of the sole authority of the Bible, a
denial of the Trinity, a distorted view of God and Jesus, or a denial
of salvation by grace.
Me: I guess anyone can use their favorite definition of words if they
want to, if it makes them happy. I believe it was in the comic strip
“Peanuts’ that Charlie Brown (or one of the kids) defined a “cult” as
“that church down the road that’s different from mine”. It will be
easy to show you that the characteristics a cult according to your
“definition” can just as easily be applied to the New Testament
Christians, or to the Catholic Church (from the Reformers viewpoint),
or to practically any of the mainline Protestant churches at some
stage of their history. Jeff Lindsay’s website has a section that
addresses many of your characteristics of a “cult” in a pretty good
summary. You can find it here: http://www.jefflindsay.com/LDSFAQ/FQ_cult.shtml
want to, if it makes them happy. I believe it was in the comic strip
“Peanuts’ that Charlie Brown (or one of the kids) defined a “cult” as
“that church down the road that’s different from mine”. It will be
easy to show you that the characteristics a cult according to your
“definition” can just as easily be applied to the New Testament
Christians, or to the Catholic Church (from the Reformers viewpoint),
or to practically any of the mainline Protestant churches at some
stage of their history. Jeff Lindsay’s website has a section that
addresses many of your characteristics of a “cult” in a pretty good
summary. You can find it here: http://www.jefflindsay.com/LDSFAQ/FQ_cult.shtml
Ronny: New Revelation: Many cult leaders claim to have a direct
pipeline to God. The teachings of the cult often change and they need
new “revelations” to justify such changes. Mormon’s, for example,
once excluded African Americans from the priesthood. When social
pressure was exerted against the Mormon church for this blatant for of
racism, the Mormon president received a new “revelation” reversing the
previous decree.
pipeline to God. The teachings of the cult often change and they need
new “revelations” to justify such changes. Mormon’s, for example,
once excluded African Americans from the priesthood. When social
pressure was exerted against the Mormon church for this blatant for of
racism, the Mormon president received a new “revelation” reversing the
previous decree.
Me: Peter was the prophet and head of The Church of Jesus Christ of
Former-day Saints, and he claimed to have a direct pipeline to God.
He received a milestone new revelation that justified a change in
policy allowing baptisms of Gentiles that had not only been excluded
from the priesthood, but from even membership in the fledgling Jewish
church. He resisted at first but finally submitted his will to God.
(Acts 10:9-48)
Former-day Saints, and he claimed to have a direct pipeline to God.
He received a milestone new revelation that justified a change in
policy allowing baptisms of Gentiles that had not only been excluded
from the priesthood, but from even membership in the fledgling Jewish
church. He resisted at first but finally submitted his will to God.
(Acts 10:9-48)
In contrast, when the LDS Church began growing in Brazil and other
lands in record numbers and many new members were of African ancestry
who could not receive the priesthood, President Spencer W. Kimball
begged the Lord to make a change just as Abraham begged Jehovah to
preserve Sodom from destruction if only 50, 45, 40, 30, 20, or 10
righteous people could be found there. As with Abraham, God listened
to the pleas of President Kimball and revealed His will that the
Church change its policy. (see Gen. 18:23-33 and Revelation on the
Priesthood )
lands in record numbers and many new members were of African ancestry
who could not receive the priesthood, President Spencer W. Kimball
begged the Lord to make a change just as Abraham begged Jehovah to
preserve Sodom from destruction if only 50, 45, 40, 30, 20, or 10
righteous people could be found there. As with Abraham, God listened
to the pleas of President Kimball and revealed His will that the
Church change its policy. (see Gen. 18:23-33 and Revelation on the
Priesthood )
You should know that even before the LDS Church began active
proselyting in Africa there were groups of native people there who had
heard of the “Mormons” and had organized their own congregations in
imitation of the LDS Church. In 1978 there were mass baptisms in
places like Ghana and Kenya, and since then the LDS missionary work
has literally exploded in that part of the world. Not bad for a
religion that is so “bigoted”, huh? Read here about the first black
LDS General Authority and the history of the LDS Church in Africa:
http://www.rickross.com/reference/mormon/mormon607.html
proselyting in Africa there were groups of native people there who had
heard of the “Mormons” and had organized their own congregations in
imitation of the LDS Church. In 1978 there were mass baptisms in
places like Ghana and Kenya, and since then the LDS missionary work
has literally exploded in that part of the world. Not bad for a
religion that is so “bigoted”, huh? Read here about the first black
LDS General Authority and the history of the LDS Church in Africa:
http://www.rickross.com/reference/mormon/mormon607.html
Ronny: Denial of the Sole Authority of the Bible: Many cults deny
the sole authority of the Bible. The Mormons believe the Book of
Mormon is higher Scripture than the Bible.
the sole authority of the Bible. The Mormons believe the Book of
Mormon is higher Scripture than the Bible.
Me: It never ceases to amaze me how uninformed many Evangelicals are
about the history of Christianity and the Bible. The doctrine of
“sola scriptura” was first taught by an Englishman named John Wycliffe
in the 14th century and it was not until the Reformation in the 1500’s
that the 66 books of the current Protestant Bible became the “sole
authority” for Reformed Christians. They were the “cult” according to
the “orthodox” Christianity of the time - the Roman Catholic Church.
The Roman church claimed that the Bible, their traditions, and the
pronouncements of the Pope were all authoritative in Christian
doctrine and practices. It still maintains that doctrine today.
Check out this Catholic website:
http://www.angelfire.com/home/protestantchallenges/dates.html#ss
about the history of Christianity and the Bible. The doctrine of
“sola scriptura” was first taught by an Englishman named John Wycliffe
in the 14th century and it was not until the Reformation in the 1500’s
that the 66 books of the current Protestant Bible became the “sole
authority” for Reformed Christians. They were the “cult” according to
the “orthodox” Christianity of the time - the Roman Catholic Church.
The Roman church claimed that the Bible, their traditions, and the
pronouncements of the Pope were all authoritative in Christian
doctrine and practices. It still maintains that doctrine today.
Check out this Catholic website:
http://www.angelfire.com/home/protestantchallenges/dates.html#ss
Roman Catholic and the Greek Orthodox churches even today use Bibles
containing seven additional books of the Apocrypha. So are they a
“cult” because they use additional scripture? These additional books
were part of Martin Luther’s first German translation and every other
Bible published prior to that time. The Apocryphal books were even
included in the 1611 first edition of the King James Version. I think
this part of your definition of a “cult” falls flat.
containing seven additional books of the Apocrypha. So are they a
“cult” because they use additional scripture? These additional books
were part of Martin Luther’s first German translation and every other
Bible published prior to that time. The Apocryphal books were even
included in the 1611 first edition of the King James Version. I think
this part of your definition of a “cult” falls flat.
Ronny: A Distorted View of God and Jesus: Many cults set forth a
distorted view of God and Jesus. Mormons say Jesus was
“procreated” (by heavenly father and heavenly mother) at a point in
time, and was the spirit-brother of Lucifer. Mormons do speak of a
“Trinity,” but redefine it into Tritheism (i.e. three gods.)
distorted view of God and Jesus. Mormons say Jesus was
“procreated” (by heavenly father and heavenly mother) at a point in
time, and was the spirit-brother of Lucifer. Mormons do speak of a
“Trinity,” but redefine it into Tritheism (i.e. three gods.)
Me: Again, the Catholic Church has a view that the body of Jesus is
literally present in the wafers of the Communion sacrament, and that
Mary remained a virgin after the birth of Jesus (despite Bible
references to his younger siblings) and that she is a “coredemptrix”
with Jesus in the forgiveness of our sins. http://www.catholicsource.net/articles/coredemptrix.html
literally present in the wafers of the Communion sacrament, and that
Mary remained a virgin after the birth of Jesus (despite Bible
references to his younger siblings) and that she is a “coredemptrix”
with Jesus in the forgiveness of our sins. http://www.catholicsource.net/articles/coredemptrix.html
These doctrines are at least as “distorted” as you claim the LDS
doctrines are. Are they a “cult”? One man’s “distortion” is another
man’s true doctrine.
doctrines are. Are they a “cult”? One man’s “distortion” is another
man’s true doctrine.
Ronny: Don't you believe that Jesus is the Spirit Brother of Lucifer?
Me: In December 2007 the LDS Church issued the following press
release on this issue: Like other Christians, we believe Jesus is the
divine Son of God. Satan is a fallen angel. As the Apostle Paul
wrote, God is the Father of all. That means that all beings were
created by God and are His spirit children. Christ, however, was the
only begotten in the flesh, and we worship Him as the Son of God and
the Savior of mankind.
More info is here: http://en.fairmormon.org/Jesus_Christ/Brother_of_Satan
release on this issue: Like other Christians, we believe Jesus is the
divine Son of God. Satan is a fallen angel. As the Apostle Paul
wrote, God is the Father of all. That means that all beings were
created by God and are His spirit children. Christ, however, was the
only begotten in the flesh, and we worship Him as the Son of God and
the Savior of mankind.
More info is here: http://en.fairmormon.org/Jesus_Christ/Brother_of_Satan
Ronny: You don't believe in the Trinity?
Me: “Trinity’ is a word not used in the Bible. If you believe in
“sola scriptura” you can’t require Christians to use it. Our first
Article of Faith states: We believe in God the Eternal Father, and in
His son Jesus Christ, and in the Holy Ghost. What is “cultic” about
that? In 325 AD a council of about 300 (out of 1800 serving) Catholic
bishops gathered in Nicea at the request of the pagan Emperor
Constantine and formulated a creed that tried to reconcile the
Biblical statements that there three persons called “God” and yet
there was “one” God. They then forced all Christians to accept their
solution as “gospel”, with varying results. Theological debates and
other councils continued to tweak the concept for centuries.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_Council_of_Nicaea
“sola scriptura” you can’t require Christians to use it. Our first
Article of Faith states: We believe in God the Eternal Father, and in
His son Jesus Christ, and in the Holy Ghost. What is “cultic” about
that? In 325 AD a council of about 300 (out of 1800 serving) Catholic
bishops gathered in Nicea at the request of the pagan Emperor
Constantine and formulated a creed that tried to reconcile the
Biblical statements that there three persons called “God” and yet
there was “one” God. They then forced all Christians to accept their
solution as “gospel”, with varying results. Theological debates and
other councils continued to tweak the concept for centuries.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_Council_of_Nicaea
“Mormons” do indeed believe that the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost each
have the title of “God”. How do we believe they are “one”? Jesus
himself explained it in John 17:20-23:
Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe
on me through their word; That they all may be one; as thou, Father,
art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the
world may believe that thou hast sent me. And the glory which thou
gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one:
I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one; and
that the world may know that thou hast sent me, and hast loved them,
as thou hast loved me.
have the title of “God”. How do we believe they are “one”? Jesus
himself explained it in John 17:20-23:
Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe
on me through their word; That they all may be one; as thou, Father,
art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the
world may believe that thou hast sent me. And the glory which thou
gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one:
I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one; and
that the world may know that thou hast sent me, and hast loved them,
as thou hast loved me.
In other words, the three members of the Godhead (the Biblical word
used by LDS instead of “trinity”) are “one” in unity of purpose and
in agreement, as Jesus prayed that his disciples might be. That’s not
so hard to understand is it?
More info here: http://en.fairmormon.org/Mormonism_and_the_nature_of_God/Polytheism
used by LDS instead of “trinity”) are “one” in unity of purpose and
in agreement, as Jesus prayed that his disciples might be. That’s not
so hard to understand is it?
More info here: http://en.fairmormon.org/Mormonism_and_the_nature_of_God/Polytheism
Ronny: What about the immaculate conception of Jesus?
Me: Two marvelous events happened on that wondrous night when Jesus
was conceived in Mary's womb. According to the Bible, (1) the Holy
Ghost came upon her, and (2) the power of the Highest "overshadowed"
her. The first was necessary because no mortal can endure the
presence of God the Father without the protection of the Holy Ghost.
But Jesus is not the son of the Holy Ghost. God the Father is "the
Highest," and it is He who is the father of Jesus. To say otherwise
is to "wrest the scriptures." Check out the following:
Conception of Jesus: http://en.fairmormon.org/Jesus_Christ/Conception
Heavenly Mother: http://en.fairmormon.org/Mormonism_and_the_nature_of_God/Heavenly_Mother
Jesus brother of Lucifer: http://en.fairmormon.org/Jesus_Christ/Brother_of_Satan
was conceived in Mary's womb. According to the Bible, (1) the Holy
Ghost came upon her, and (2) the power of the Highest "overshadowed"
her. The first was necessary because no mortal can endure the
presence of God the Father without the protection of the Holy Ghost.
But Jesus is not the son of the Holy Ghost. God the Father is "the
Highest," and it is He who is the father of Jesus. To say otherwise
is to "wrest the scriptures." Check out the following:
Conception of Jesus: http://en.fairmormon.org/Jesus_Christ/Conception
Heavenly Mother: http://en.fairmormon.org/Mormonism_and_the_nature_of_God/Heavenly_Mother
Jesus brother of Lucifer: http://en.fairmormon.org/Jesus_Christ/Brother_of_Satan
Ronny: You deny the concept of Salvation by Grace:
Cults typically deny salvation by grace, thus distorting the purity of
the gospel. The Mormons emphasize the necessity of becoming more and
more perfect in this life.
Me: Our 3rd Article of Faith says: We believe that through the
Atonement of Christ, all mankind may be saved, by obedience to the
laws and ordinances of the Gospel.
The Book of Mormon says: For we labor diligently to write, to
persuade our children, and also our brethren, to believe in Christ,
and to be reconciled to God; for we know that it is by grace that we
are saved, after all we can do. (2 Neph 25:23) Does that sound like
we deny salvation by grace? Of course there is this emphasis: “Be ye
perfect, even as your Father in Heaven is perfect.” But who said
that? It wasn’t Joseph Smith. It was Jesus. (Matt. 5:48)
Atonement of Christ, all mankind may be saved, by obedience to the
laws and ordinances of the Gospel.
The Book of Mormon says: For we labor diligently to write, to
persuade our children, and also our brethren, to believe in Christ,
and to be reconciled to God; for we know that it is by grace that we
are saved, after all we can do. (2 Neph 25:23) Does that sound like
we deny salvation by grace? Of course there is this emphasis: “Be ye
perfect, even as your Father in Heaven is perfect.” But who said
that? It wasn’t Joseph Smith. It was Jesus. (Matt. 5:48)
Ronny: Mormons have all the Sociological Characteristics of a Cult:
Many cults have sociological traits. These include authoritarianism,
exclusivism, dogmatism, close-mindedness, susceptibility,
compartmentalization, isolation, and even antagonism.
Authoritarianism: This involves the acceptance of an authority figure
who often uses mind-control techniques on group members. As prophet/
or founder, this leader’s word is considered ultimate.
Many cults have sociological traits. These include authoritarianism,
exclusivism, dogmatism, close-mindedness, susceptibility,
compartmentalization, isolation, and even antagonism.
Authoritarianism: This involves the acceptance of an authority figure
who often uses mind-control techniques on group members. As prophet/
or founder, this leader’s word is considered ultimate.
Me: "The leader’s word is considered ultimate"? What about this?
“I am more afraid that this people have so much confidence in their
leaders that they will not inquire for themselves of God whether they
are led by him. I am fearful they settle down in a state of blind self
security. Let every man and woman know, by the whispering of the
Spirit of God to themselves, whether their leaders are walking in the
path the Lord dictates, or not.” Do you know who said that? …
Brigham Young. Pretty poor mind control I’d say.
“I am more afraid that this people have so much confidence in their
leaders that they will not inquire for themselves of God whether they
are led by him. I am fearful they settle down in a state of blind self
security. Let every man and woman know, by the whispering of the
Spirit of God to themselves, whether their leaders are walking in the
path the Lord dictates, or not.” Do you know who said that? …
Brigham Young. Pretty poor mind control I’d say.
Ronny: Cults teach Exclusivism: “We alone have the truth.” The
Mormons believe they are the exclusive community of saved on earth.
Mormons believe they are the exclusive community of saved on earth.
Me: How about this one?
“I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father,
but by me.”
Pretty exclusive, don’t you think? But -- oops, that was Jesus, too.
(John 14:6)
“I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father,
but by me.”
Pretty exclusive, don’t you think? But -- oops, that was Jesus, too.
(John 14:6)
Ronny: Cults are dogmatic—and this dogmatism is often expressed
institutionally. For example, Mormons claim to be the only true
church on earth.
institutionally. For example, Mormons claim to be the only true
church on earth.
Me: Yes, that’s how that “cultist” Paul described the New Testament
saints:
”One Lord, one faith, one baptism.” Eph 4:5
We “Mormons” feel the same about our church as Paul did.
saints:
”One Lord, one faith, one baptism.” Eph 4:5
We “Mormons” feel the same about our church as Paul did.
Ronny: Close-mindedness: Hand in hand with dogmatism is the
characteristic of close-mindedness. This unwillingness to even
consider any other point of view often has radical manifestations.
One educated Mormon we encountered said he did not care if it could be
proved that Joseph Smith was a false prophet; he still would remain a
Mormon.
characteristic of close-mindedness. This unwillingness to even
consider any other point of view often has radical manifestations.
One educated Mormon we encountered said he did not care if it could be
proved that Joseph Smith was a false prophet; he still would remain a
Mormon.
Me: I can’t speak for your anonymous source. As for me, I follow
Thomas Jefferson’s admonition. I’m “not afraid to follow truth
wherever it may lead”. Most Latter-day Saints that I know (and I know
a lot more than you do) feel the same. (Thomas Jefferson to
William Roscoe, 27 December 1820)
Thomas Jefferson’s admonition. I’m “not afraid to follow truth
wherever it may lead”. Most Latter-day Saints that I know (and I know
a lot more than you do) feel the same. (Thomas Jefferson to
William Roscoe, 27 December 1820)
However I will say that I’ve studied a lot of anti-Mormon claims
against Joseph Smith for over 20 years and investigated them
thoroughly. I’m a pretty well “educated Mormon” myself, and not one
of those claims has proven true.
against Joseph Smith for over 20 years and investigated them
thoroughly. I’m a pretty well “educated Mormon” myself, and not one
of those claims has proven true.
Ronny: Susceptibility: The psychological profile of many individuals
who are sucked into cults is not flattering. All too often, though
not always, people who join cults are highly gullible. Sometimes they
are even psychologically vulnerable. But above all, the cultic
mentality is characterized by an unhealthy compartmentalization (that
is, they “compartmentalize” conflicting facts and ignore anything that
contradicts their claims). Many Mormons have a “burning in the bosom”
which makes it nearly impossible to reason with them about their
faith. Cultists often accept teachings by a kind of blind faith that
is impervious to sound reasoning. One Mormon missionary said he would
believe the Book of Mormon even if it said there were square circles!
who are sucked into cults is not flattering. All too often, though
not always, people who join cults are highly gullible. Sometimes they
are even psychologically vulnerable. But above all, the cultic
mentality is characterized by an unhealthy compartmentalization (that
is, they “compartmentalize” conflicting facts and ignore anything that
contradicts their claims). Many Mormons have a “burning in the bosom”
which makes it nearly impossible to reason with them about their
faith. Cultists often accept teachings by a kind of blind faith that
is impervious to sound reasoning. One Mormon missionary said he would
believe the Book of Mormon even if it said there were square circles!
Me: You’ve got to be kidding, right? Latter-day Saints are among the
best-educated and independent people in the world! We are over-
represented in every field of endeavor imaginable such as science,
business, government, academics, medicine, entertainment, sports … you
name it. We are the very opposite of the gullible “cult mentality”
you describe.
You mentioned the “burning in the bosom” as an experience descriptive
of cults. I beg to differ with you. When the Savior walked with the
disciples on the road to Emmaus then knew it was the Lord because as
they said, “our hearts burned within us” (Luke 24:32). John Wesley,
the founder of Methodism said that he came to a better knowledge of
Christ because after hearing a sermon “my heart felt strangely
warmed”. I don’t believe these people were “cultists”. They were
listening to the promptings of the Holy Spirit.
best-educated and independent people in the world! We are over-
represented in every field of endeavor imaginable such as science,
business, government, academics, medicine, entertainment, sports … you
name it. We are the very opposite of the gullible “cult mentality”
you describe.
You mentioned the “burning in the bosom” as an experience descriptive
of cults. I beg to differ with you. When the Savior walked with the
disciples on the road to Emmaus then knew it was the Lord because as
they said, “our hearts burned within us” (Luke 24:32). John Wesley,
the founder of Methodism said that he came to a better knowledge of
Christ because after hearing a sermon “my heart felt strangely
warmed”. I don’t believe these people were “cultists”. They were
listening to the promptings of the Holy Spirit.
Ronny: Isolationism: The cults tell members that if they leave the
group, they will be attacked and destroyed by Satan. The errection of
such barriers, whether physical or psychological, creates an
environment of isolation, which in turn often leads to antagonism.
group, they will be attacked and destroyed by Satan. The errection of
such barriers, whether physical or psychological, creates an
environment of isolation, which in turn often leads to antagonism.
Me: I think you must be confusing The Church of Jesus Christ of
Latter-day Saints with that small polygamous imitation, the FLDS
church that built a compound in Texas. We are the fourth largest
church in America and the second largest in California and several
other states. There are over 14 million of us in every state and many
foreign countries. We are your neighbors, your dentists, your PTA
associates, your mechanics, and even your friends. The only time the
“Mormons” were isolated is when they had to flee persecution from mobs
in Missouri and Illinois to a “safe haven” in the western desert in
1847. The only “barriers” or “antagonism” has come from those who
have burned out, beaten, raped and murdered our people in the past.
The “Mormons” have been the VICTIMS of antagonism.
Anyone who wants to leave the LDS church is free do to so. Many do so
every day without reprisals. I’ve known some personally.
Latter-day Saints with that small polygamous imitation, the FLDS
church that built a compound in Texas. We are the fourth largest
church in America and the second largest in California and several
other states. There are over 14 million of us in every state and many
foreign countries. We are your neighbors, your dentists, your PTA
associates, your mechanics, and even your friends. The only time the
“Mormons” were isolated is when they had to flee persecution from mobs
in Missouri and Illinois to a “safe haven” in the western desert in
1847. The only “barriers” or “antagonism” has come from those who
have burned out, beaten, raped and murdered our people in the past.
The “Mormons” have been the VICTIMS of antagonism.
Anyone who wants to leave the LDS church is free do to so. Many do so
every day without reprisals. I’ve known some personally.
Ronny: Antagonism: In a context of isolation, both fear and
antagonism toward the outside world is often generated. All other
groups are considered apostate. They are considered “the enemy” and
“tools of Satan”
antagonism toward the outside world is often generated. All other
groups are considered apostate. They are considered “the enemy” and
“tools of Satan”
Me: Once again your information is totally wrong. This is what the
president of our church said about the “other groups” you speak of:
"We can respect other religions, and must do so. We must recognize the
great good they accomplish. We must teach our children to be tolerant
and friendly toward those not of our faith… We recognize the good in
all churches. We recognize the value of religion generally. We say to
everyone: live the teachings which you have received from your church.
We invite you to come and learn from us, to see if we can add to those
teachings and enhance your life and your understanding of things
sacred and divine." Gordon B. Hinckley, interview with Lawrence
Spicer, London News Service, 28 Aug. 1995
president of our church said about the “other groups” you speak of:
"We can respect other religions, and must do so. We must recognize the
great good they accomplish. We must teach our children to be tolerant
and friendly toward those not of our faith… We recognize the good in
all churches. We recognize the value of religion generally. We say to
everyone: live the teachings which you have received from your church.
We invite you to come and learn from us, to see if we can add to those
teachings and enhance your life and your understanding of things
sacred and divine." Gordon B. Hinckley, interview with Lawrence
Spicer, London News Service, 28 Aug. 1995
Ronny: Legalism:
Setting down a rigid set of rules by which the
devotees must live is common to many cults. These standards are
usually extrabiblical. The Mormon teaching forbidding the use of
coffee, tea, or any drink with caffeine is a case in point.
Me:
You forgot the use of tobacco, alcohol and illegal drugs, which
the Word of Wisdom also prohibits. Christ said that our bodies are
temples, and we should take care of them by avoiding harmful
substances. What’s wrong with that? And you’re wrong about “any
drink with caffeine”. LDS members are counseled against excessive use
of caffeinated drinks to a point where it may become habit-forming,
but obedience to the Word of Wisdom is voluntary as it is with all the
commandments of God. It was God himself who set down a “rigid set of
rules” on Mount Sinai. Jesus re-emphasized the most important
ones. If we break His commandments we receive His consequences.
It’s our choice. However the Bible speaks of Christians withdrawing
fellowship from members of the community who persist in serious sins
such as adultery, etc. Latter-day Saints follow that same Biblical
pattern.
Ronny:
Sexual Perversion:
Along with legalism, the twin vice of
moral perversion is often found in the cults. Joseph Smith (and other
Mormon leaders) had many wives.
Me:
So did Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, and many other Bible prophets.
It was not “moral perversion” but a sacred marriage covenant approved
by God at certain times and under specific conditions. Did you know
the twelve tribes of Israel came from four different wives of Jacob?
But as you know, members of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day
Saints have not performed any polygamous marriages since 1890. Any
church member doing that now is excommunicated.
Ronny:
Physical Abuse:
Psychological abuse, such as fear,
intimidation, and isolation are common.
Me: Bishops and other LDS Church leaders are trained to be on the
lookout for such cases among Church members and to report illegal
activities to police and to excommunicate anyone found guilty of such
actions. I have personal knowledge of a case where this has
happened. But such things are definitely NOT “common”. Where did you
get that idea? (oh yeah, that anti-Mormon literature you read, right?
Do you really consider that a reliable source? What will the Chevy
dealer say about Fords?)
lookout for such cases among Church members and to report illegal
activities to police and to excommunicate anyone found guilty of such
actions. I have personal knowledge of a case where this has
happened. But such things are definitely NOT “common”. Where did you
get that idea? (oh yeah, that anti-Mormon literature you read, right?
Do you really consider that a reliable source? What will the Chevy
dealer say about Fords?)
Ronny:
Intolerance toward Others:
Toleration is not one of the
virtues of the cultic mentality. Intolerance is often manifest in
antagonism and sometimes culminates in killings. Mormons have examples
of this kind of violent intolerance. (Mountain Meadows 1857 in
Utah).
Me: The Mountain Meadows incident was a tragic isolated local event
that happened at a time of great tension and fear among the LDS
people. In 1857 an adulterous federal judge told lies to Congress
after being kicked off the bench in Salt Lake City, and the US
government sent one-third of the entire Union army to Utah to put down
a supposed “rebellion” by the Mormons.
In the midst of this charged
atmosphere a company of travelers in southern Utah several days
journey away from Salt Lake and Church headquarters were joined by
some ruffians who were bragging about how they had raped and murdered
Mormons in Missouri. The California-bound wagon train was attacked by
a group of Indians and Mormons and most of them were killed. Shortly
afterward a fast rider arrived from Salt Lake with instructions from
Brigham Young to “let them go in peace”, but it was too late. It was
an isolated human reaction to extreme circumstances and in no way
reflected the doctrines or practices of the Church. The main LDS
leader of the attack was tried for murder and executed.
A more
complete description of the incident is here:
http://maxwellinstitute.byu.edu/publications/review/?vol=20&num=2&id=726
Ronny:
Moral Deception:
Mormon founder Joseph Smith also engaged
in fraudulent tactics which, on occasion, even landed him in court,
where he was once found guilty and fined.
Me: The legal system in those days permitted anyone with an axe to
grind to file an action that could put his opponent in jail. Just as
Paul and Silas were unjustly sent to prison in Acts 16:19, Joseph
Smith and other Mormon leaders were frequently unjustly imprisoned by
the enemies of truth.
grind to file an action that could put his opponent in jail. Just as
Paul and Silas were unjustly sent to prison in Acts 16:19, Joseph
Smith and other Mormon leaders were frequently unjustly imprisoned by
the enemies of truth.
Ronny:
Scripture Twisting by Cults:
The fact is, the cults are
notorious Scripture-twisters. These groups do not build upon what the
Bible teaches but upon what the founders or leaders of the respective
cults say the Bible teaches.
A cultic reinterpretation of Scripture
that yields another Jesus and another gospel (2 Cor. 11:3-4; Gal.
1:6-9) will yield only eternal death (Rev. 20: 11-15.)
Me:
I believe that among all religions there are those who can (and
do) misinterpret scripture. Even worse, for centuries the “orthodox”
Christian church in Europe prevented people from even reading the
Bible upon pain of death. Even among Protestants, men were burned at
the stake for translating the Bible into the language of the common
people. None of this kind of “cultic” behavior is found among the
Latter-day Saints.
The Jesus I love and serve is Jesus of Nazareth, the eternal Son of
God and my Lord and Savior. The gospel I study and share is the “good
news” of His blood spilt as atonement for my sins and His resurrection
that offers me eternal life. Anything else is icing on the cake.
Joseph Smith said it this way: “The fundamental principles of our
religion are the testimony of the Apostles and Prophets, concerning
Jesus Christ, that He died, was buried, and rose again the third day,
and ascended into heaven; and all other things which pertain to our
religion are only appendages to it." History of the Church, 6:366
religion are the testimony of the Apostles and Prophets, concerning
Jesus Christ, that He died, was buried, and rose again the third day,
and ascended into heaven; and all other things which pertain to our
religion are only appendages to it." History of the Church, 6:366
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